Building Trust and Safety in Relationships: How to Thrive, Maintain, and Have a Healthy One!
Do you ever wonder how to keep relationships thriving? What’s that secret ingredient? How to stay happy and still like each other? Did you know the quality of your relationships shapes your happiness and well-being? Listen as Lauren Abrams dives deep into the secrets of building and maintaining meaningful, lasting connections. We’re thrilled to have Dr. Widian Nicola, educator, esteemed author, psychotherapist, and relationship expert, sharing her wisdom with you. Whether you're looking to strengthen your bonds or understand the secrets behind vibrant relationships, you don't want to miss this insightful conversation.
In this episode, Dr. Widian Nicola gives you a sneak peek into her much-anticipated book, "To Love and Hold: A Guide to Thriving Modern Relationships." She talks about the four essential pillars that form the foundation of strong, enduring relationships. One of the standout lessons is the incredible power of gratitude.
Dr. Nicola explains how simply acknowledging and appreciating your partner’s daily efforts can transform your relationship. She shares a beautifully simple practice: make it a habit to say "thank you" for even the little things. It’s a small gesture with a big impact.
"Thank you is a physical, tangible way in which I can say to you that I see you and that I see what you're doing for our family or the health of our relationship."– Dr. Nicola, (13:55)
Discover how empathy can transform your relationships! Dr. Widian Nicola and Lauren Abrams uncover the essential role of empathy in building deep emotional connections and fostering mutual respect. They discuss how being attuned to your partner's feelings and responding with genuine compassion can make all the difference.
“Tenderness and empathy and compassion for our inner child, the parts that have been neglected or abandoned or unseen or hurt or wounded, tenderness towards those parts is primary.” – Dr. Nicola, (19:42)
Listen to Dr. Widian Nicola's fresh perspective on intimacy. She explains that intimacy goes far beyond physical closeness. Intimacy is about connecting on emotional, intellectual, and even spiritual levels.
In this episode, you'll also uncover the surprising power of playfulness in adult relationships. Dr. Nicola and Lauren Abrams reveal how bringing fun and lightheartedness into your interactions can rekindle connection and joy between partners.
Conflict in relationships doesn’t have to be a bad thing! Dr. Widian Nicola and Lauren Abrams take a fresh look at conflict resolution. They explain that conflicts are not just inevitable but can be beneficial. Think of them as signals highlighting areas in your relationship needing attention and care. You can strengthen your connections and create deeper, lasting bonds by embracing and addressing these moments with understanding and openness.
“Everything about being free is to be yourself in this world—authentic, genuine, broken, wounded, you know, like crazy, you know, like all the things that make us fully alive and fully human.”– Dr. Nicola, (31:37)
Tune in to this inspiring conversation with Dr. Widian Nicola for more insights and practical advice on how to thrive, maintain, and have a healthy relationship!
In this episode:
(00:00) The four pillars of healthy relationships
(01:49) Manifestation and relationship coaching
(04:25) The journey to becoming a relationship expert
(10:30) Gratitude as a relationship tool
(15:22) Defining intimacy in relationships
(18:18) Navigating unconscious processes in relationships
(18:43) Patterns and Attachment Theory
(21:06) Impact of Historical Reactions
(23:54) Conflict Resolution and Play
(28:55) Overcoming Challenges and Community
Resources and Links
Weeks of Hope
If you want to start your Podcast
Podify - Website
About Dr. Widian Nicola
Dr. Widian Nicola is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with over 20 years of experience. An Associate Professor of Graduate Social Work at Seton Hall University, she hosts the "Lived Experience Project" podcast. Specializing in couples therapy, she also advocates for immigrant justice, conducting psychological evaluations and serving as an expert witness.
Dr. Widian Nicola on Social Media
If you're looking for ways to nurture your relationships, this episode promises a wealth of inspiration and practical wisdom!
Key Takeaways
“Why else would we exist if not to be profoundly impacted by other people and be stretched to have and maintain healthy relationships." -Dr. Nicola, (04:55).
“At some point often in relationships we forget to see the contributions of the other and therefore we forget to see the other.”- Dr. Nicola,(11:10)
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[00:00:00] Lauren Abrams: Are you a burnt-out overachiever buried in responsibilities? Do you miss laughing with your friends, just laughing from the gut? Do you feel like life's passing you by? If you've been wishing for some kind of shift, you're in the right place. Welcome to 52 weeks of hope the show where we take you off the hamster wheel by ditching your to do list for the to do list.
This is where you get to learn how to make that lonely ache vanish. Learn self compassion techniques and to give yourself grace. I'm Lauren Abrams and I get to help you feel that magic again since going through my own dark night of the soul. So you can learn from my experience and the mentors and experts I meet along the way.
And today we're talking to author, psychotherapist, professor and relationship expert, Wydian Nicola. Wydian Nicola Are you ready to level up your relationships? Did you know there's four pillars to a healthy relationship? Listen right now and learn the essentials of connection plus how to nurture deeper love and relationships to yourself and others Dr.
Nicola says anyone can cultivate vibrant, lasting love with the right tools and insights. The amazing author of the upcoming bestseller about thriving relationships, welcome to 52 Weeks of Hope. Whittian.
[00:01:10] Widian Nicola: Yeah. Thank you, Lauren. So good to be with you. Really. I'm overjoyed and grateful.
[00:01:14] Lauren Abrams: Yeah, me too. I'm so excited to meet you.
Okay, so our prior guest a couple of times letha j Said you have to meet my friend And I love that you told me before we started recording that she was your manifestation coach I go stop stop. I want to actually hear about this while we're recording. I love this stuff and so does Anyone drawn to listen to this podcast?
Definitely. So I want to hear what was going on with you. Yeah. And what you manifested because she's so good. I know you manifested it.
[00:01:49] Widian Nicola: Right. Well, that'd be, that's the crazy part is, you know, I think I entered into my relationship with Latha, assuming that I wanted to talk about one thing, but of course, as you know, when you develop relationships with people and you start asking really hard and important questions, other questions.
And so when I approached her, a lot of the questions were about my work and my career and the way in which I wanted to develop my knowledge and expand my practice and lean into these bigger questions about my purpose and my direction in life. But of course, those questions led to my personal life and my relationship.
and the direction of, you know, my partnership and these hard questions. And oftentimes what I found when I was working with her is that she would answer a question with a question and I'm like, I need you to give me the answer. Right. And so there was this like beautiful, I would say symbiotic relationship that I developed with her over a really short period of time that led me to deeper and higher Quickly, very, very quickly.
But, but I will say because I was ready for it, the answers that I was looking for came quite quickly and I was able to ride that wave. So one of the big questions was about the direction I was heading with my, with now my husband, actually. She asked me, actually, I remember this is a few years ago, cause we've been married a little while, not too long.
This was like three years ago. And I, I was asking her a question about whether or not we were equally ambitious about our careers and our careers. goals and she asked me the question about whether or not we are both equally ambitious about our relationship. And at the end of the day, that's truly what mattered.
And so when all these, and I was like, Oh, that's such a good answer, you know, I just was really moved by these really important fundamental questions that we all have. We have to ask ourselves in order to move to the next level or to the next stage or to elevate and are sent like our awakening our consciousness to raise those those frequencies so that we could be much more open to, you know, what's out there rather than the fear really constricting and binding us.
In keeping us sort of captive and it's stuck. And so she freed me. I would say she freed me. And, um, I appreciate her for that. And for so many reasons, obviously.
[00:04:03] Lauren Abrams: It's so interesting. And here you are, this renowned professor and studying relationships and everything. And it's always like, look in the mirror, you know, and I don't mean that in a rude way.
I might have sounded and, and now I, so did that, is that how your book, because your book to love and hold a guide to thriving modern relationships. I did that. Were you already writing it or is that since then? So
[00:04:25] Widian Nicola: let me just give you a quick background. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm one of the fortunate ones in life.
I knew what I wanted to do since I was a child. I always knew that I wanted to support and love on people and help them along the way. I wanted to go on immigration law for a really long time because my own immigration journey, but then along the way I was led to social work. And then over time I got my doctorate and began really thinking about what.
The biggest question in life is, and that is how do we cultivate, maintain healthy relationships? Because to me, that's what the purpose of life is. Why else would we exist if not to be profoundly impacted by other people and be stretched to have and maintain healthy relationships, not just with other people, ourselves, the planet.
All these things. And so along the way, I began working with couples because I was able to see repair and healing in a way that I couldn't see when I was working with individuals, I could see it obviously. Cause I don't know if you've ever seen people along the journey, really. change in profound ways, but seeing it in a couple was, it's mind blowing Lauren.
Like when I see my clients on a daily basis, I am moved beyond comprehension because of the way in which I see a shift in mindset or a shift in empathy or a development of a skill like compassion, for example, uh, when it's moved and given freely to another person, it's remarkable. And so over time, I've really realized that.
Even though I'm lucky to know, have discovered very early on that my life's work is to help people, I've narrowed it down. And now I'm very clear that my life's work is to help people create, maintain healthy relationships, particularly in romantic partnerships, not exclusively, but very particularly now.
So this work, this question was incredibly raw and, uh, had to grapple with it. How do I make that, how do I make that tangible? How do I make these questions or this knowledge that I have in here, how do I make it tangible and manifest it into the world? So it becomes something that's both practical and useful and could actually lead to real transformation and healing for people.
That question has been simmering in me for a long time. Uh, but it's becoming clearer and clearer by the day that this is the next step in the way in which I could. support people and support this world and bring, bring good, hopefully.
[00:06:48] Lauren Abrams: Yeah. And how more people than you can physically see.
[00:06:53] Widian Nicola: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:06:54] Lauren Abrams: Yeah.
[00:06:54] Widian Nicola: Cause that's limited, right? That can only see a handful of clients a week. Well, more than a handful, [00:07:00] but, but just enough. And I always think about life and our work as being measured by impact. Some impact is immeasurable. There's no way for me to know how. impacted my students have been learning from me at the university or my clients have been seeing me in my practice or, you know, the other many ways.
But, but if I can, as purposefully and intentionally and consciously as possible, put myself out there to widen the scope of impact. Why wouldn't I do it? The way that you're doing it, right? Like you read the times and you say, people are listening to podcasts. They want to hear and be inspired and motivated to learn and grow and evolve and change and shift.
How do we, how do I reach these people and to your brilliance, you say, let me join the forces where people can find access to this knowledge much more easily. So it's a similar journey than to the one you've probably been on, but I think they're the book medium seems to be the way in which I think I can reach people at least.
Right now and then it might evolve into something more coursework Whatever it might be but for right now that seems like the best way to do it.
[00:08:12] Lauren Abrams: So for people listening which tools because You can't see everyone what tools somebody they're grappling in a relationship or what should they look at first?
What's the first thing? Is it the four pillars that I talked about in the opening?
[00:08:30] Widian Nicola: Okay, so let, I want to talk about these things because they, they matter. And, and I might, I'm just going to give you four, but within each one, there's a subset of other things. First, we have to define what these things are.
And I will say that over the years that I've been in practice, which is many, and over the time that I've seen couples, which are many, and studied and learned and done research, I've, Distilled these ingredients to distilled all this knowledge to the four ingredients that I think are essential to healthy, loving and thriving relationships.
And here they are. Or we could talk about them individually because I want to hear about, you know, what you think of these things too, because these things are things that. You know, live in my mind, but they're continually developing and they're applicable to different couples in different ways. And I will preface, it's not just couples.
If you're in a polyamorous relationship, this stuff is relevant too. It isn't just for couples. It isn't just for people in marriage. It's for people developing healthy, romantic partnerships, uh, relationships all together. So here they are. Gratitude, empathy, intimacy, and play. And I will say if a couple has.
is thriving in three of those four areas. They're doing really well, but attention needs to be given to all the areas. Now can every couple or every relationship maintain a hundred percent of each of these areas? Heck no. It's like completely, it's like absolutely impossible. We have lives, we have stress, we have our own emotions.
It's, it's absolutely impossible for any couple to be at the top of their game 24 seven. It's not human. It's not. possible and certainly it's not sustainable. It's, it's, it's impossible. The awareness of these, each of these areas and the way in which we develop and project these things is necessary, however, right?
So if you know that, You take each other for granted that no one says, thank you, even for the smallest things, then that will start to wear on a relationship. So I, oftentimes when I have couples who are incredibly, let me just say this when I have couples that come that have issues. Infidelity communication.
We're built up resentment. Oftentimes, the first homework assignment, the first tiny, tiny shift that I asked couples to make is to start saying thank you for everything you took out the trash. Okay, that's your duty. That's your short. I want you to say thank you anyway. To your partner. You did the dishes.
Oh, that's what you've done for the last 20 years. I don't care. You need to say thank you to your partner. And the reason I do that is for, well, there's a number of reasons I do that Lauren, one of which at some point, often in relationships, we forget to see the contributions of the other. And therefore we forget to see the other.
And the way in which they contribute to our life and our well being. And so thank you is a physical, tangible way in which I can say to you that I see you and that I could see what you're doing on behalf of our family or for the health of our relationship. It's so small, but Lauren, you wouldn't believe how difficult it is for couples to say thank you.
Often what I hear is, why should I say thank you? I do this, this, this, this, and this, and I don't expect a thank you. So why should I say thank you for you taking out the trash? It's that small, but what does it tell me though? It tells me a great deal because it isn't about the thank you. I always tell couples, you came in here about the dirty laundry.
It ain't ever about the dirty laundry. There's issues beneath the dirty laundry and there's reasons beneath why he came. So oftentimes it's about unearthing that, asking the harder questions about what led you here? What is this laundry actually symbolic of? What is this really about? You know, and my work is to look for patterns and try to, um, generously reinterpret what one person is saying to the other and create a space where they can feel heard and seen, even loved.
You know, part of their, a time in their life where. Maybe they haven't. So those are the four things we could talk about them individually. But I will tell you, if anybody is listening and you're having a hard time with your partner, try saying thank you for the littlest, tiniest things and see how huge of a shift it might actually create in your relationship.
[00:12:48] Lauren Abrams: I always say when I'm getting angry, I have said, I'll write a gratitude list for him. I go, Oh, he's so great. Cause, cause my friends and I exchange gratitude lesson every day. Right.
[00:13:00] Widian Nicola: Right. And,
[00:13:00] Lauren Abrams: um, we've done that for years. So. And then I, so I turned that around, like it, and people go, but I'm not feeling grateful.
I go, that's not the point. It's by the time you get to the end of the list that you feel grateful. You don't have to, when you start, it's at the end. And so it works in your relationship also. So while you go, it. Like, Oh, yeah, I forgot. They're okay. No, they're a good person. Oh, yeah. Oh, I like them. Or I love them and they're great.
That's that's
[00:13:32] Widian Nicola: them for a reason. Or, yeah,
[00:13:34] Lauren Abrams: that's a good attitude adjustment. Like that's quick and easy and, you know, do 20 things. Uh, 10 if 20 is too many, you know,
[00:13:42] Widian Nicola: even three, because I mean, to your point, Lauren, oftentimes, if there is something you're grateful for, and it needs to be addressed in a really productive way, it cannot be a productive conversation.
If you come at it From a place of anger and resentment. So the gratitude list doesn't mean you're bypassing the things that concern you or annoy you and you're pretending or, you know, putting things under the rug, which is an unhealthy dynamic, you're just saying, let me get grounded enough. Let me really capture the essence of what's going on here so that it isn't a projection of something that I'm incredibly, incredibly upset about that is yet to be filtered or processed or digested properly.
So. I think your mechanism is, is brilliant, number one, and it's probably much more meaningful for a productive, constructive conversation later, because when we do, I always talk to couples, the difference between constructive anger and destructive anger. So their anger, oftentimes people shy away from anger, or they use anger in a way that could be incredibly destructive and unhelpful and unsupportive, but anger can be incredibly supportive.
Constructed because it's an indicator that something's off or a boundary has been crossed and so the brilliance of it is that when we lean into these emotions in a healthy and productive way, we could actually use them as guides for addressing issues that that really need to be addressed.
[00:15:10] Lauren Abrams: Yeah. Okay.
So when you talk about intimacy as being one of the pillars, um, I don't think you're only talking about sex here.
[00:15:19] Widian Nicola: Oh gosh, no, absolutely. So maybe we should define intimacy because intimacy, everyone would define it differently. But to your point, I think a lot of people would, would, would conflate intimacy with sex.
Now is sex intimate and active intimacy? For sure. But is intimacy have to include sex? It does not. So intimacy is any act or movement that creates deeper connection. It could be sexual. It could be sensual. It could be erotic. It could be platonic, but there is a sense of intimacy in that it allows us to move closer and dive deeper into the connectedness of others.
But let me tell you, this is the danger of intimacy. It requires a risk and vulnerability.
[00:16:04] Lauren Abrams: Already.
[00:16:05] Widian Nicola: When
[00:16:05] Lauren Abrams: you're not feeling safe because your walls go up, what do you do then?
[00:16:10] Widian Nicola: Well, it really depends on the situation, right? So if you feel unsafe, we have to tackle and create parameters for safety. So I will say this, in order to cultivate a sense of trust that the place is safe or the person is safe, we have to take a risk.
Now, I often tell people you have to take risks that aren't too high cost, that don't come at a cost. Small risks on a daily basis. Holding someone's hand. Rubbing someone's shoulder, see if there's a responsiveness, if there's a responsiveness in this, what we, you know, the Gottman's did a lot of research and, and term this dance as you're well aware of this dance, this cycle of, of making a bid and the responsiveness to the bid is the movement from one person to the other to try to engage the other person to come back toward us as well.
And so these are the small risks we take a little by little by little, right? I test my husband all the time. I'm just like Is he responding to my date? He has no clue that it's happening. I'm literally like, I'm doing research on him, like, often. Actually, when we first started dating years ago, people were like, Is he your case study?
Like, we don't understand how you two ended up together because you're so different. And so I always joke, yes, he's my case study. I am studying him. But it's, it's, it's fascinating, right? If we're in the car and I'm like, Oh, Oh, look at this, babe, you know, and if he responds, I'm like, great, he's waiting. We don't have to, I don't have to, I don't have to, I'm not bullying him, but it's a joy, right?
Like, so, so these are the small risks we could take because they're low stakes. It isn't, you're not putting your entire heart and soul out there in these micro moments. And then over time you develop trust to create that safety. So I would say low stakes first. build trust, build some confidence, higher stakes.
[00:18:00] Lauren Abrams: I'm also thinking, uh, all that childhood stuff. Yeah. We've got the stuff. Yeah. Uh, I'm out. And when you disengage and all of that kind of stuff, just, it has nothing to do with the person you're with. It's your stuff, but you might not even be aware of it.
[00:18:16] Widian Nicola: Yeah. You're spot on the level of unconscious processes and projections that we participate in is.
Beyond measure. Oftentimes, if we are completely like We are completely unaware and unaware of these dynamics. That is actually one of the most brilliant gifts of therapy, is that it allows the unconscious to become conscious. The patterns that we engage in and the cycles that we're a part of, and I will tell you, Lauren, you probably read up on this quite a bit, but attachment theory is proving to be incredibly supportive and helping couples recognize why they respond to their partners the way that they respond to.
One of the hardest dynamics that I see with the couples that I work with is the dynamic of someone who's got like an anxious attachment and the partner who's got the avoidant attachment. The anxious partner who's like, tell me, let me, tell me, let me, tell me you love me. I'm scared. Please don't leave me Please reassure me that becomes projected onto the partner who becomes then suffocated and the avoidant partner does what they withdraw And that withdraw then as you know and can deduce right becomes even more activating for the person with anxious attachment and so then they Come and they try to draw near and near.
So these patterns, we're not consciously aware of these patterns oftentimes, if at all, and how we manage them. Ooh, that's a whole nother ballgame. Awareness is primary, obviously, tenderness and empathy and compassion for our inner child, the parts that have been neglected or abandoned or unseen or hurt or wounded.
Tenderness towards those parts is key. Primary. So yes, oftentimes when we work, when we are in partnerships, we're developing these new patterns, but oftentimes we're reenacting them. without even knowing. And so no wonder we're activated or triggered throughout our relationships or unhappy or our partner reminds us of our mom or our dad, or, Oh, I was, you know, for me, I was the oldest sibling.
And so my partner, I am the oldest sibling, my partner, he's like, super chill. I'm like, I'm chill. He's so chill that he like, He hangs out, he has a lot of fun, like, he's so chill. And I'm like, let's, you know, we need to have everything ordered, you know? And at some point, I think it was like a few weeks ago, I was like, oh my gosh.
No wonder I'm starting to feel jealousy of his, his play. Because I didn't get to play as a child. I had to be responsible for my siblings while they played. And so when these things come to awareness, I'm like, oh, it's not about him. Right. It's never, like you said, it never is. Right. Yeah. Never is. Never
[00:21:02] Lauren Abrams: about our partner ever, ever, ever.
And so, yeah, that's that three fingers, you know, if you point at somebody, there's three fingers pointing back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you point and that, that's the other thing when I was thinking, when you were talking, I was like, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Sure. If I have a, yeah. And for anyone listening, I was like, what are you talking about?
It's if you have a really strong reaction to something, It's not about the other person. They've hit your buttons. They've hit your buttons. Yes. It's your old stuff. Yeah.
[00:21:32] Widian Nicola: And that's the other thing too, right? If it's that, so yes, if it's historical, if it's historical, it's hysterical, it's hysterical, meaning that if it's a disproportionate response to the event that's happening, then there's something beneath it that has either historical, you know, um, it has a historical start in our families of origin, or it's been a layered effect that's happened over time.
It's compounded the level of reactivity that we have. I do that all the time. I'm like, why am I crying right now? Oh! Literally has nothing to do with him. Not even a little bit. But, but isn't that, isn't that the brilliance of relationships, Lauren? And you've heard that phrase, we hurt in relationships, we also heal in relationships.
[00:22:14] Lauren Abrams: Yeah.
[00:22:15] Widian Nicola: That if, if we are with someone who has, you know, the best intentions, who wants to be gracious and loving and break their own familial patterns and create new ones alongside of you, that we have as humans, the capacity to repair old wounds. It's astounding to me that it's, it's insane that we can literally change the neural Biochemistry of our brains.
Yeah. Isn't that wild?
[00:22:43] Lauren Abrams: Just by just end by feeling everything, which is like, who wants to do that? But if we lean into the feelings Yes. Like we get to create all these new neuro pathways and have new experiences. Yes. It's, and not have to feel that again. Exact same thing again. Yay. It's
[00:22:59] Widian Nicola: wild. It's wild. And this is what I mean when I say, when I see couples, I'm like.
I'm literally seeing them change. It's, it's so beautiful and wild and transcendent. And it's just a remarkable and tangible evidence of just how love and repair and compassion and empathy and tenderness can really change someone's biological chemistry but, but change their heart and their mind. It's, it's really remarkable.
Okay, I have a question
[00:23:31] Lauren Abrams: about conflict resolution. Because I never learned feelings. Number one. I mean, I still, I, I was like, we didn't grow up talking about our feelings. I talk about that a lot. I'm here. Like I Google feelings chart. I've gotten a lot better. There's and stuff like that. So forget conflict resolutions.
That's still like, so like, how do you navigate that? Okay. Let's
[00:23:53] Widian Nicola: set the stage though. Conflict is not bad. Let's clarify that conflict is often some kind of friction or some rub. And some indicators that something's not working. So great, something's not working. First, first and foremost, I often see issues from a very positive perspective.
There's nothing wrong. It's not bad that you're struggling. It's just that something is happening and it feels bad. And there's, it's an indicator or a guide or a signpost or a signal. That something is off and something isn't working and we need to fix it. Cool. That's great. What a great, great starting point.
Now, if the conflict continues over and over and over again, it means that we haven't found a creative solution to manage it. Fine. Let's keep finding solutions. C, D, E, F, whatever. So that's the first thing, is that conflict isn't in and of itself bad. It's not a bad thing at all. The question is, does the couple, do the partners want to resolve the conflict?
Or is there a stalemate? Or is there a lack of understanding, a lack of communication, a lack of desire to shift, a lack of desire to change, to make this conflict shift out of what it's been for as long as it's been. So that's another piece too. I think conflict resolution requires a commitment for change and a desire to take the steps necessary to make that change.
The other thing I will say is that, and this is why play is so important in a relationship, the part of our brain when we're in conflict overrides the part of our brain that plays because we're in a fight, flight, freeze, defensive mode. You can't be defensive because you're running from a saber toothed tiger and then want to play jump rope at the same time.
It's impossible. Those parts of our brains get overridden, stay closed, and therefore we have no capacity to take on an issue from a light hearted place. Play, however, when we incorporate it Into our daily life when there's lightheartedness and joy and fun opens the part of our brain that allows for imagination and creativity when we're in conflict.
What we really need is imaginative capacity and creativity to find new solutions that we have yet to try. So. It's not always a good place to resolve conflict when you're in the conflict.
[00:26:18] Lauren Abrams: Yeah,
[00:26:19] Widian Nicola: because that part of our brain is actually not turned on for us to be able to have those meaningful conversations to have these aha.
Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, that's good. I'll give you an example. Okay. So my husband and I are different like social spectrums. I'm incredibly extroverted and he's a little bit more introverted. A wonderful compatibility. We're incredibly, incredibly compatible in that way. It doesn't often rub up because we understand like, what each person needs.
We're willing to support the other and what they need to make sure they're comfortable. He did say to me a while back. Okay. I don't enjoy when we do this. And I'm like, yeah, but this is how we meet my social needs. And so when he said, I don't enjoy when we do this, I get upset. I'm like, oh, what do you mean?
My needs are going to be unmet. I don't know what you're talking about. And so what happened though, when I removed myself from the equation and I just heard what he said finally, because I wasn't so fixated on my needs being unmet. Cause that's what I've been used to my whole life. When I removed that and I was able to tenderly hold the part of me that's frightened about not having her needs met, I was able to entertain his experience.
And he said, what I would rather is do this. And I was like, that's brilliant. Why didn't I think of that? Let's do that. We ended up doing the plan he proposed. And Lauren, I kid you not, we had the most amazing time because it was in a place where we could find creative solutions to this conflict. And let me tell you, then it becomes the template that we superimpose onto conflicts that look similar in the future.
So now I know this type of template, this type of formula, it doesn't work for my husband. But in order for me to get my needs met and for him to get his needs met, we have to find a middle ground.
[00:28:03] Lauren Abrams: No, it was a great example. It was a great way for like, no, that was, yeah.
[00:28:08] Widian Nicola: And I couldn't, we couldn't have gotten there though, Lauren, because I was so stuck in my, Childhood trauma, right?
Like, that's not even trauma. It's, I need this. Like, I, I got it. Yes, yes, yes.
[00:28:19] Lauren Abrams: But
[00:28:20] Widian Nicola: it's great. What about that? But if I don't trust that my husband is going to be an equal contributor to getting my needs met, I wouldn't have felt safe enough to, to compromise with him and negotiate with him and have that conversation with him, because there wouldn't have been a reason.
He's never, he doesn't care. But I don't have that kind of partner.
[00:28:37] Lauren Abrams: No, no, no, no. Yeah, of course not. But yeah. I don't know.
[00:28:40] Widian Nicola: It was
[00:28:41] Lauren Abrams: a great. I hope that answers your question. That was, no, that was a great example. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely does. What is the hardest challenge that you've ever gone through and how did you get through it?
In life? Yeah.
[00:28:54] Widian Nicola: Lauren, when I, I'm an immigrant child that came when I was eight. My family, uh, lived 30 years of our life being undocumented and it wasn't until several years ago. So actually when Obama, uh, I don't remember what year. Kate, he wrote the, yeah, with
[00:29:12] Lauren Abrams: DACA and I was among
[00:29:14] Widian Nicola: the first DACA recipients at the time.
I was like a couple, two months shy of turning 30 at the time, 42 now, so it's been a while. And so when DACA shifted, I, I had documentation, my parents did not, they voluntarily deported. There were many years that I didn't get to see them. My siblings had also been deported and left the country, so I was kind of here by myself for a long time.
It was really, you know, it was a very turbulent, trying, incredibly painful time, but navigating a system that was incredibly Unforgiving and, uh, not compassionate and didn't have any opportunities for, for freedom was, is, it was very difficult. You know, I, I think in many ways I have overcome those things.
I've, you know, since then in my work been an incredibly boisterous advocate for undocumented immigrants specifically, but even asylum seekers. So now I conduct psychological evaluations for those seeking asylum or refugees. I appear in immigration court as an expert witness.
So my, my, you know, at some point, like it's this full circle and, and I've always known all along too, Lauren, I think you could relate to that, that there's a higher purpose and that regardless, it doesn't matter what the Boundaries are or the blocks are if God has a purpose, the universe is has something carved out for you.
That's meaningful. It will nothing will stop. Nothing will stop you. And I've been really fortunate because even though I've been in pursuit of these hopes and dreams myself, I know that something else has been carrying me all along, whether it's angels or God or this great thing we call love. I don't know.
It's other people. I don't know. But I think, you know, and I get teary eyed thinking about it because it's been so many years of suffering and yet, and yet here we are, right? Like, continuing to do the good work and, and trying to spread this greater, deeper, more transcendent message about love and repair and relationships.
And so when I think about my relationship with the, with the U. S. with the immigration system, with my parents. with my friends, with my education, with my partner. The themes that have emerged in all of those have to do with freedom. Everything about being freely, uh, being able to be free as to be yourself in this world, authentic, genuine, broken, wounded, you know, like crazy, you know, like all
[00:31:45] Lauren Abrams: that
[00:31:46] Widian Nicola: makes us fully alive and fully human.
And I will say, You know, I think I've tackled most of that because I'm documented now. And yet, my work in that world is not yet complete. Like, I think that will be something I contribute to for the rest of my life, but it's not easy. But again, I think everything that underlies, the thing that underlies every issue, social ailment, Anything that's created brokenness or wounding in our world, everything is about relationships, how we don't see people as they are, how we exclude people from particular institutions or places or the world, whether it's transgender, transgender issues or racism, all this stuff that's coming about, you know, all this stuff that just continues to like, simmer to the surface.
All that stuff is about relationships. Who's worthy of love, who's not worthy of love. And I don't want to be a part of it. I really like, I don't want to be a part of like the, the nonsense. I think there's no time for that. There's no time.
[00:32:48] Lauren Abrams: Yeah. So how did you overcome that or how are you? I guess it's by your volunteering.
[00:32:54] Widian Nicola: Well, I went to therapy for a number of years. That was really helpful.
[00:32:58] Lauren Abrams: Um,
[00:32:59] Widian Nicola: but I will say besides feeling connected to something higher than myself that gave me hope and love and tenderness. And safety, the very thing that I've been longing for my entire life. people. I think people, my friends, my community, I, I think my highest value in life is community.
And I don't think we could do life alone, which is why it's oftentimes, you know, incredibly clear to me that my life's work is to help foster people become healthier so that we can help and love on each other more.
[00:33:30] Lauren Abrams: The community is just beyond important. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Uh, yeah, that's the number one message when I compile all my messages out.
It's community. Exactly. Definitely. Ah, that's a good segue to, do you have a message I hope you want to give?
[00:33:47] Widian Nicola: Yeah. Find people who care. I think that that's oftentimes our lifeline is people, right? As I was saying earlier, let me think about this for a second, Lauren, because I don't know that there's a single answer for what cultivates or creates hope.
All I know is that oftentimes it could just be one thing. It doesn't have to be hope that the future is going to be bright. It's just that I can make it to tomorrow or that there's a resource out there that can support me or that there are people that I have yet to meet that are going to love me more than even the people I've met so far in my life.
That's a true reality, right? It's, it's insane to me that there are going to be people in the next four years of my life that have yet to meet that are going to love me. Just as much, if not more, than the people I've met in the first four years of my life. And so I will say, especially for people who experience a lot of despair and hurt, woundedness, uh, that there's always somebody out there.
There always is. And if you can't find anybody accessibly, Therapy always helps.
[00:34:47] Lauren Abrams: Yeah. And less that day. Yeah.
[00:34:52] Widian Nicola: Follow her Instagram. You'll know.
[00:34:54] Lauren Abrams: Yeah, she's amazing. This was so great. Are there any questions I didn't ask you were going to be done? And you were like, Lauren didn't ask me this.
[00:35:03] Widian Nicola: Let me think for a second.
No, I don't think there's any questions per se. No, I think what we've said, hopefully, if it resonates for people, then great. You know, if there's anything unsaid, I'm sure we'll tackle it another time in some way.
[00:35:15] Lauren Abrams: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We're going to go live and we'll help people that. So this has been so great.
Thank you so much for being a guest today. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:25] Widian Nicola: You're doing such good work. It's good to see you.
[00:35:27] Lauren Abrams: Yeah. You too.